Cleveland-based duo FRAYLE returns this October with Heretics & Lullabies, their haunting new album released via Napalm Records. We caught up with Gwyn Strang and Sean Bilovecky to talk about their collaboration with producer Aaron Chaparian, their recent signing with Napalm, and the dark, emotional themes woven through their latest work.
Welcome to Frayle
How are you? And, how is this period treating you, with the promotion and the new album?
Sean: Well, I think everyone loves to talk about what they’re passionate about. We’re always happy to discuss the record because we’re very proud of it and proud of the band. It’s an awesome experience every time you release a record to get to talk about it. If there’s anybody that wants to talk, we’re happy to. So again, thank you for having us.
Heretics & Lullabies is here
Heretics & Lullabies will be released in October; it’s Frayle’s third album. I wanted to ask you how you started to collect your ideas for this new album and then how you proceeded to its production.
Gwen: The way we write music has remained the same because it works for us. Generally, what happens is Sean has a bunch of riffs—hundreds of riffs in a library. We pick out a few of those and determine which ones we want to flesh out. Then I will sing a vocal sketch on top of everything.
When we have some ideas, we go through and look at which ones we want to put on the record, and then we demo those fully before going to production. We don’t really think of an album as having a theme or a concept; we just put together a bunch of songs. It’s funny, though, how after you finish recording everything and sit back to look at it as a body of work, it becomes a project. The theme or concept you were going through becomes apparent after you’re done.
Frayle working with producer Aaron Shaparian
I like that you stick to that method because if it works, it’s efficient for both of you. Why change?
Sean: Yeah, we do. There is a difference this time, though, not in the writing, but in the production. It was the first time we used a producer. Gwen and I have always done everything ourselves; all the other records we self-mixed. But for this one, working with Napalm and our management suggested bringing a producer in, and we had the budget to do so. I was very nervous.
Aaron Shaparian is the producer, and we kind of hit it off right away. I explained the vision I was going for—we wanted the record to sound more like it came from the late ’90s, early 2000s, simply because I wanted to get back to a more organic feeling and less like a laptop. I feel like aggression comes from humans doing things and not so much computers clicking back at you. That informed a lot of how we did the drums and things like that.
When he sent the first mix back, I literally cried a little, I think. I was so happy. So that was the difference, and that was sort of leveling up. I think Gwen was always open to it, but I was a little hesitant. If you have the ability to work with someone who is far more skilled than you in a certain aspect, we are now—I am now—more open to letting that happen.
The challenge behind working with a producer
You mentioned that this time Frayle worked with a producer. How challenging is it to give power to another person, you know? It’s always scary to invite someone else into your process because you don’t know what to expect.
Sean: For sure, it was super scary for me. We went with one of my best friends and favorite people in the world, John Morgan, who played drums on the record. I’ve been in a band with him before, and though he wasn’t on a previous Frayle record, I was always writing the drums thinking, “Okay, what would John do?” because he and I are almost like musical soulmates when it comes to the rhythm section. That part felt pretty normal, even though it was the first time working with him.
The producer side of it was different. When John and I were there recording drums, I was like, “Okay, this is feeling good.” He sounds the way I’d like, we’re on the same page, and he’s better than I am at getting sounds out and pulling things out. But it was the mix where I was like, “Man, I don’t know. What’s this going to sound like?” I don’t know. But when we got it back—the first song—I was just so happy and literally in tears because it was scary.
I think we were very fortunate to work with the right person. I talked to other producers, and it just didn’t feel right. But in the early discussions, it felt right with Aaron. We must have done a good job of pre-vetting who we let in. It turned out to be a great decision.
Frayle getting signed to Napalm Records
You also mentioned that you signed to Napalm Records. I still remember that for the previous album, you collaborated with Lay Bare Recordings. How does it feel to step up to a bigger welcome?
Gwen: Yeah, I mean, Desiree will always and forever be dear to us because she actually released our very first EP, The White Witch. We love her, and every time we go to the Netherlands, we make an appointment to see her. So, we love her. There’s something to be said for these smaller labels—it feels more homey or family.
That being said, everything Napalm does is about making sure that your vision is being fulfilled. They just want to help you do what you want to do. For that reason, they’re also quick to suggest improvements if they think you’re not doing something as well as you can.
“Everything Napalm does is about making sure that your vision is being fulfilled”
Sean: Yeah, not so much with sales, just as far as like your vision and your perspective. Could it be stronger?
Gwen: For instance, the record cover. We did a bunch of different shoots, and I wasn’t really happy with any of them. We ended up with one that was a little bit safer—one of the images in the red dress on the marsh—but they were like, “You know, this is a great picture, but we know you can do better.”
So that’s when we got the album cover that we have now. We definitely think they were 100% right on that. And I think even when we turned it in, we knew we could have done better, but we were kind of hitting a deadline or something.
Frayle working with Napalm Records
Sean: Well, I think we didn’t know; we were kind of unsure.
Gwen: It is difficult. You’re so close to it. You don’t really know what is best when you have two equally good but totally different feelings. I think it’s better to have someone outside of that make the decision.
Sean: Yeah. And their team has been incredible. They have a press team and a social media team. Like with the record covers, the A&R team would say, “What would you think about doing something like this? This has worked well for us in the past, but let’s shift it to this for you.”
So they give us all these ideas, and it’s just exciting. We’re on the same page with a mutual respect of listening to each other. We never feel pressured. I honestly feel like Gwen said, it’s almost like the parent you never had, guiding you through your creative work, helping your creative process. It’s just been outstanding to work with them.
The occasion of a lifetime
Yeah. I’m happy because I think you deserve it. Now, please don’t take this personally, but I love Desiree’s releases and how she’s sort of this mother queen for her bands, and I really love that. But sometimes if you have an occasion, you need to take it because you know that train will stop just once and will never stop again, I think.
Sean: Right. Yeah. When Napalm reached out to us, we didn’t know what we wanted to do. I mean, it’s not like we didn’t like Desiree. We love her. Like Gwen said, we just came back from a European tour, and the very first thing we did was have lunch with Desiree. So it’s like we talk to her all the time and have a good relationship with her.
Honestly, we’d probably work with her again if that made sense for us. But like you said, when Napalm reached out to us, we were like, “Wow, this is something that we could really sink our teeth into.” But we had no idea what to expect. Is a bigger label going to change you or force you to do something that you don’t want to do and all this forced into like…
Go for the adventure
Gwen: …are they going to even pay attention to you?
Sean: Yeah, that’s another worry, right? Are they just going to shelve you? Even though I don’t think it’s the kind of label that would do that, that kind of stuff happens.
Yeah, I mean, those are justified thoughts because, unfortunately, some experiences don’t work out for a lot of reasons that, yeah, I cannot name, I don’t know, but sometimes it happens. So it’s good to go for the adventure and see how it goes on, you know?
Gwen: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And we’re very happy. Like I said, they’ve been nothing but… I’ve read a lot of great, great reviews.
Frayle covering Lana del Rey’s Summertime Sadness
Like I mentioned before, the album will be out in October. There are already a couple of songs out, which are “Summertime Sadness” and “Walking Wounded.” First of all, let me ask you about the Lana Del Rey cover. Why did you choose to feature this song and how does it connect to the whole lyrical context of the album?
Gwen: Right. We love doing covers, and we decided we wanted to include one on Heretics and Lullabies. Whenever we knew we wanted to do a cover for this album, we usually have a few that we think about and flesh out a little bit, carry it forward, and make a demo of. We’ll decide which one we want to keep. We included Lana‘s version of “Summertime Sadness.” Lana Del Rey is obviously the queen of melancholy. I absolutely love her voice; it’s so mournful.
It’s a song that we relate to. We had a little bit of pressure with this one because we weren’t really sold on the opening and the first verse. So I told Sean, “I don’t think this is it. It’s a little safe.” So when I went out, he got rid of everything except for vocals and drums. He just stripped it all the way back to the beginning.
A great choice
Then he created those single notes, the entry into the song. He called me, and I was like, “Ah, that’s it, that’s the one.” This was actually the first song we sent off to Aaron, and he added the pause after going into the chorus, and we knew it was very special at that point. So, of course, that had to be the one.
Well, it’s a great choice because, like I said, I really like it. It fits perfectly. I don’t know how, but I always listen to my gut; it is perfect.
Gwen: Yes, thank you. Usually, I write lyrics about depression, heartbreak, things like this, and that 100% just kind of fit with everything.
(Wannabe) single of Frayle
You know, I also love “Souvenirs of Your Betrayal.” It’s not a single, but anyway, it doesn’t matter.
Sean: Oh yeah, it will be. We’re making a video for it.
Oh, seriously?
Gwen: Yeah, we both love this song, and it’s such a heartbreaker that we decided after the album comes out, we’re going to make a couple of other videos, and this is definitely going to be one.
Sean: Yeah, that was probably my favorite song off the record. Other than the songs that are singles, that’s like, you know, the meat of the record. Those lyrics and it’s such a heartbreaker. They grab me more than any other lyrics I think Gwen has written. It connects to some sort of pain or wound that I have. And that one is “just like, fuck, you know”, like…
Yes, it’s coming…
Yeah, absolutely. And I understand that because the moment I listened to it the first time, I said, “Oh, this song is great. Thank you.”
Sean & Gwen: Oh, thank you.
It does have a lot of potential for a single, but now I’m really surprised. I’m not surprised that you guys will choose it because it’s an amazing song.
Sean: Yeah. And the video—the visuals that we have that go along with it—are just… it’s a continuation of the other videos that we have where there are the sacrifices or the girls in the wedding dresses. So they’ll be in there, and there’s going to be a lot of blood involved. But man, that song, so good.
Who are these heretics?
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, the album is Heretics and Lullabies. Who are these heretics that you speak about?
Gwen: Yeah, so for me, I’ve been called a heretic for… well, forever, ever since I was a kid. But…
I’m so sorry to hear that.
Gwen: Oh, it’s okay. It’s just one of those things that we can look back with sadness, or we can look at it as part of who we are today. We choose to always do the latter. I grew up in a very strict household. When I decided that I wanted to do something other than church stuff—I mean, I was in the choir, I played organ, everything—when I decided this wasn’t it, that I wanted to pierce my nose and dye my hair pink, it was a bit of a shock because I come from a tiny town, and anything outside the norm is “not of God.”
Frayle: This album kind of explores the nature of heresy
This album kind of explores the nature of heresy. I say, “What is heresy for one is scripture for another.” If we take a look at it, is being a strong female voice in this toxic patriarchy heresy? Is it living as you want to live when there are others who tell you your show, your TV show is going to be canceled because you spoke about somebody, is that heresy?
So I think all of these things could be considered heretical. And the lullabies part of it is just a continuation. My goal is always to make people feel included and accepted. The lullabies part is I want to sing to you, and maybe hopefully, you’ll feel a bit better if you get something out of one of the songs. That’s always the goal for me.
The experience in the Netherlands for Frayle
I know you’ve already had a European tour with a recent gig in Haarlem in the Netherlands. But I wanted to ask you if there are other plans for tours and what you are looking forward to the most.
Gwen: Yeah, so we have a couple of things in the fire, as they say, but nothing can be announced yet because it hasn’t been finalized. There are a bunch of dates that would keep us pretty busy through the end of the year. We always love getting back to Europe.
Actually, Haarlem’s Patronaat is one of our favorite venues. The whole thing is incredible: the way they treat you, the dressing room, even all the way down to the stage and the people who do the lighting. Everybody is so professional. That’s always a highlight for us.
Sean: The Netherlands is full of venues from the future [laughs]. Patronaat and Doornroosje—those venues are just out of control.
“Actually, Haarlem’s Patronaat is one of our favorite venues”
Okay, nice to hear that. I usually attend the one in Haarlem if I manage. Doornroosje is a bit far away from me, but I love them both because they are sick. They are not big bars; they are big, so it depends on the band. And I think they have a great fit for you.
Sean: Yeah, we just love it. I mean, the Netherlands is still, I think, both our favorite country. If we were to move to Europe, which we talk about all the time, we would for sure go to the Netherlands. Desiree lives in Nijmegen, and just feeling like home there because we spent so much time there. We just love it.
Final words
Okay, so I wanted to thank you for your time and for the interview. When it’s out, I’ll be sure to share it with you guys, and I want to thank you for your time that you have dedicated.
Sean & Gwen: Oh, thank you for having us. We always appreciate good interviews, and this was definitely one of them. So thank you so much.